Does God Exist? Debate

[Admin]

Does God Exist? A debate between DJ Grothe and Jon Rittenhouse


As a program director for the Center for Inquiry, DJ Grothe serves as director of the CFI-On Campus, a secular, pro-science alternative to organizations such as Campus Crusade for Christ and fringe-science and paranormal movements. Mr. Grothe has traveled and lectured widely throughout North America, speaking to over a hundred campuses and communities on secular ethics, religious-political extremism, church-state separation, the role of religion in education, science advocacy and skepticism and the paranormal. His writings have been published in newspapers throughout the United States, and he has spoken on numerous radio and television programs. He is currently finishing a book on the need for public argument in a secular democracy.


Jon Rittenhouse is an adjunct professor at Biola University and teaches in the Biblical Studies department on the topic of defending the Christian faith. He has spoken to a quarter of million college students on over a 100 universities across the U.S. and in five foreign countries. Jon has a undergraduate degree in Chemical Engineering from Michigan Tech University and holds four graduate degrees which include three in theology and one in philosophy and ethics from Biola University. He is on the staff of Campus Crusade for Christ and has been so for 27 years, the entire time working with college students on various campuses. He currently resides in southern California with his wife and kids. Jon has spoken on topic such as: The evidence for God, Is Christianity Credible?, Is One True Really Possible?, Is Truth a Matter of Opinion?, Does it Really Matter what we Believe?, and a host of other topics. Jon is passionate and articulate and has significant experience communication the rationality and evidence for the Christian faith. His message is both compelling and compassionate.

[Admin]

Date: Tuesday, April 19, 2005
Location: University Quad - Cal Poly Pomona
Time: 12 PM

Contact: Sarah Jordan
Center For Inquiry (CFI) Organizer
sjordan@centerforinq uiry.net
(716) 636-7571

[Admin]

We're having a debate with Campus Crusade for Christ on Tuesday, April 19th at NOON in the University Quad. The debate will be between DJ Grothe (supported by RES) and Jon Rittenhouse (CCC). DJ Grothe is the director of Center for Free Inquiry - On Campus and often speaks at college campuses and communities on secular ethics, religious-political extremism, church-state separation, the role of religion in education, science advocacy and skepticism and the paranormal. Jon Rittenhouse is an instructor at the International School of Theology in Fontana and is "passionate about God, the gospel, college students, discipleship and evangelism." He feels energetic and enthused about helping people (especially college students) have a better relationship with, and understanding of, God. This debate promises to be interesting and intriguing, so wear your Round Earth t-shirt and show up on Tuesday at noon to listen as the existence of God is either proved or disproved!

Read more at Round Earth Society website.

[xiaoxue]

...are either of these two dudes going to convince anybody of anything? even at the time when the only man ever died and returned there were skeptics. now these enlightened people hide behind the cloak of "science." yawn.........

Originally Posted by KayCee

We're having a debate with Campus Crusade for Christ on Tuesday, April 19th at NOON in the University Quad. The debate will be between DJ Grothe (supported by RES) and Jon Rittenhouse (CCC). DJ Grothe is the director of Center for Free Inquiry - On Campus and often speaks at college campuses and communities on secular ethics, religious-political extremism, church-state separation, the role of religion in education, science advocacy and skepticism and the paranormal. Jon Rittenhouse is an instructor at the International School of Theology in Fontana and is "passionate about God, the gospel, college students, discipleship and evangelism." He feels energetic and enthused about helping people (especially college students) have a better relationship with, and understanding of, God. This debate promises to be interesting and intriguing, so wear your Round Earth t-shirt and show up on Tuesday at noon to listen as the existence of God is either proved or disproved!

Read more at Round Earth Society website.

[JPWRana]

the only reason(s) why i could see that someone doesn't exist in god is:

1) his parents never taught him about christian faith

2) he's had tough things happen in life (or seen them) and that's convinced him that God doesn't exist because he's been screwed.

Other than that, evolution isn't that strong, so I wouldnt see that as a reason.

[Ketcham82]

Originally Posted by JPWRana

the only reason(s) why i could see that someone doesn't exist in god is:

1) his parents never taught him about christian faith

2) he's had tough things happen in life (or seen them) and that's convinced him that God doesn't exist because he's been screwed.

Other than that, evolution isn't that strong, so I wouldnt see that as a reason.

1) So is there only one god? Or just your god, your christian god? What about allah? Or shiva? or buddah? Do they exist too? And if so, who rules? And if not, why just your god?

2) Does one beliefs rely on personal experience? What about people who see UFO's? No one seems to believe them. personal beliefs have nothing to do with personal experiences. Faith is a fabric of social, moral and psychological (through mantras) acquisition from the community around you.

You, as a christian, cannot speak for mankind. You are a speck of sand in a mountain of religions and orthodixies.

Like those jehova witnesses that try to convert you all the time, or those people from CCCP, or any other particular group of religious fanatics who tell you how great Jesus is, pretty much tell me that my beliefs aren't good enough. That if I don't believe in their god, then I'll go to hell.

Whether I am a believer or not, someone from another religion who tells me that my religion, or god, isn't good enough is pretty much an opportunist, a fanatic, a saboteur, a bigot and blasphemous.

So, to all of those Christians out there, especially those evangelical christians, this is what I say to you: You're going to have to pray harder to get us all into your church.

Thank you.

[jayandbutton]

the debate posits the notion about whether there is such a thing as a God. nowhere that i can see is there any spin about any one faith versus another. some posts here immediatedly start banging on evangelism as if this were some singular faith or something. some posters point to the dude on the quad as typical behavior of christians. duh.................

i believe the point xiaoxue is making is not about interpretations among faiths but rather about the fact that the faithful are certain about their God and the atheists are certain about nothingness. if such is so, then what is the point of a debate short of seeing God-like signs and wonders? (and by the way, i have seen at least a half dozen)

speaking of wonders, may i ask the webmaster why the Round Earth Society continues to get front page space month after month? in the interest of fairness don't faith-based organizations of which there are far more than this singular group deserve equal treatment?

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

1) So is there only one god? Or just your god, your christian god? What about allah? Or shiva? or buddah? Do they exist too? And if so, who rules? And if not, why just your god?

2) Does one beliefs rely on personal experience? What about people who see UFO's? No one seems to believe them. personal beliefs have nothing to do with personal experiences. Faith is a fabric of social, moral and psychological (through mantras) acquisition from the community around you.

You, as a christian, cannot speak for mankind. You are a speck of sand in a mountain of religions and orthodixies.

Like those jehova witnesses that try to convert you all the time, or those people from CCCP, or any other particular group of religious fanatics who tell you how great Jesus is, pretty much tell me that my beliefs aren't good enough. That if I don't believe in their god, then I'll go to hell.

Whether I am a believer or not, someone from another religion who tells me that my religion, or god, isn't good enough is pretty much an opportunist, a fanatic, a saboteur, a bigot and blasphemous.

So, to all of those Christians out there, especially those evangelical christians, this is what I say to you: You're going to have to pray harder to get us all into your church.

Thank you.

[Ketcham82]

Sorry, I forgot to make the point that atheist also believe in some form of a god. Even though it does not take the same form of a religious god, athiest believe in some sort of force (more like mother nature) that binds everything together.

I happen to know a lot of athiests. My brother is one. And not that these people believe in nothingness, which is a completely ridiculous idea because we all believe in something or else we would be stoic, they just believe that the idea of a "god" has been romanticized and idolized to such a mythical level.

I have my own personal beliefs on what god is and to me god is everywhere and is everything, and in no way god is associated with goodness or evilness. God is just god, unattached to the beliefs of man.

[xiaoxue]

Webster defines atheism as disbelief in ANY God form, a refutation of a higher power. Christians don't pray for atheists to join their church; they pray to save their lost souls from the alternative, which doesn't sound like a too nice to me for eternity.

Many atheists hide behind the cloak of science to explain away all kinds of things including the creation of life and the evolution of man. But they have trouble explaining how science made a man die and then return from the dead and then even later ascend into the heavens. That was some kind of levitation act of which even Newton and Gallileo would applaud! Apparently current day atheists wish these historical events away via theories so outrageous they deserve no further comment.

I think there is too much attention placed on differences among the flock. Example: Non-Catholics get frustrated why so much attention in placed on Mary by followers of the Pope, and non-Jews get frustrated that those who follow the Torah do not recognize the New Testament, and non-Mormons get frustrated because the LDS faith believes in a New World scripture. And then all of the above get concerned that others see Mohammed as yet another savior. We need to remember that everyone in this column all believe in God in whatever interpretation they might have.

This upcoming debate separates the vast majority called the faithful from the rest. We should not confuse this point just because you say God is Allah and I say God is the Trinity.

I too can attest to seeing things beyond scientific explanation. I saw a leg straighten, and I saw a person with no hope for life return to health. The attending physicians in both cases certainly became more faithful as a result, as did I.

JESUS (aka God) RULES!

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

Sorry, I forgot to make the point that atheist also believe in some form of a god. Even though it does not take the same form of a religious god, athiest believe in some sort of force (more like mother nature) that binds everything together.

I happen to know a lot of athiests. My brother is one. And not that these people believe in nothingness, which is a completely ridiculous idea because we all believe in something or else we would be stoic, they just believe that the idea of a "god" has been romanticized and idolized to such a mythical level.

I have my own personal beliefs on what god is and to me god is everywhere and is everything, and in no way god is associated with goodness or evilness. God is just god, unattached to the beliefs of man.

[Admin]

No particular reason. jayandbutton, please contact me if you like your club/organization announcement posted on the frontpage too. I only posted RES announcement twice so far, if I remember correctly. I had never rejected a request by another faith-based organization.
It is also not possible to post every single announcements that is available on campus. Hope that answers your question.

Originally Posted by jayandbutton

speaking of wonders, may i ask the webmaster why the Round Earth Society continues to get front page space month after month? in the interest of fairness don't faith-based organizations of which there are far more than this singular group deserve equal treatment?

[PandaMoOo]

I think I'll be there. Only to hear out the other side.

-An athiest. (One who believes in no higher intelligent power.)

[Ketcham82]

Originally Posted by xiaoxue

Webster defines atheism as disbelief in ANY God form, a refutation of a higher power. Christians don't pray for atheists to join their church; they pray to save their lost souls from the alternative, which doesn't sound like a too nice to me for eternity.

Many atheists hide behind the cloak of science to explain away all kinds of things including the creation of life and the evolution of man. But they have trouble explaining how science made a man die and then return from the dead and then even later ascend into the heavens. That was some kind of levitation act of which even Newton and Gallileo would applaud! Apparently current day atheists wish these historical events away via theories so outrageous they deserve no further comment.

I think there is too much attention placed on differences among the flock. Example: Non-Catholics get frustrated why so much attention in placed on Mary by followers of the Pope, and non-Jews get frustrated that those who follow the Torah do not recognize the New Testament, and non-Mormons get frustrated because the LDS faith believes in a New World scripture. And then all of the above get concerned that others see Mohammed as yet another savior. We need to remember that everyone in this column all believe in God in whatever interpretation they might have.

This upcoming debate separates the vast majority called the faithful from the rest. We should not confuse this point just because you say God is Allah and I say God is the Trinity.

I too can attest to seeing things beyond scientific explanation. I saw a leg straighten, and I saw a person with no hope for life return to health. The attending physicians in both cases certainly became more faithful as a result, as did I.

JESUS (aka God) RULES!

I understand your frustration towards the non-believers of any faith. And I'm sorry for making a presumption regarding athiests so quickly. What I meant is that athiests, though they do not believe in a god, they believe in some sort of force, not an entity, but rather something that binds everything together and destroys it apart.

I'm not a biology or science expert to tell you how atoms and molecules interact within the universe, but I can tell you that science, just like religion, is man's evolutionary effort to answer puzzling questions such as "where do we come from?" or "what happens after one dies?" or "why do we exist?"

And when I referred to athiest believing that the notion of a "god" has been idolized by religions, I meant that through scriptures like the Bible, man has fantasized metaphors and fabricated hallucinations to make people believe that such a man can levitate from the ground. The ignorant can be easily taken by these kinds of claims. Just remember that the Bible is a book comprised by men. There is no actual evidence that such a psychotic "god" wrote it. The Bible was written and edited by men in search of a spiritual answer to their void. And it seems to work for those who are willing enough to blind themselves of a harsh reality. That's why you cannot have faith with your mind open. You have to deny all possibility that god does not exist.

[xiaoxue]

i may go too panda just to see all of this.
i am betting that both of these people have their stump speeches well rehearsed and we will hear the same old arguments for both sides.

but at least we have some interest on campus. i hope we have some muslims and buddhists and hindus present as well as the christian/jewish majority.

i'm more excited about the basketball rally thursday.
can you post the announcement on this for all please?
thanks, xx

Originally Posted by PandaMoOo

I think I'll be there. Only to hear out the other side.

-An athiest. (One who believes in no higher intelligent power.)

[xiaoxue]

faith is and can be very confusing ketcham, for faith is belief in things unseen. you sound unsure of your beliefs and that's okay. i was there once, too, and i asked for proof. through faith, i received this special gift.

i think all people struggle with this set of beliefs. and we cannot throw a blanket over all atheists no more easily than we can those who believe in any God. some atheists i know believe in that cosmic "force" you mention, and others have no such thought or theory at all.

you are correct as well that some believers fantasize things. some see things through faith that others do not see. and some credit every act to God's Will. i disagree with this notion, for the God i know allows us to choose.

i personally hold no ill will to non believers. doubting Thomases have been on the earth for all time. i have just as much trouble with anybody who pushes a faith-based agenda to suit personal agendas as much as the so called scientists who use physics or laws of science to disprove what many of us know to be true.

let's see how all of this plays tomorrow!

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

I understand your frustration towards the non-believers of any faith. And I'm sorry for making a presumption regarding athiests so quickly. What I meant is that athiests, though they do not believe in a god, they believe in some sort of force, not an entity, but rather something that binds everything together and destroys it apart.

I'm not a biology or science expert to tell you how atoms and molecules interact within the universe, but I can tell you that science, just like religion, is man's evolutionary effort to answer puzzling questions such as "where do we come from?" or "what happens after one dies?" or "why do we exist?"

And when I referred to athiest believing that the notion of a "god" has been idolized by religions, I meant that through scriptures like the Bible, man has fantasized metaphors and fabricated hallucinations to make people believe that such a man can levitate from the ground. The ignorant can be easily taken by these kinds of claims. Just remember that the Bible is a book comprised by men. There is no actual evidence that such a psychotic "god" wrote it. The Bible was written and edited by men in search of a spiritual answer to their void. And it seems to work for those who are willing enough to blind themselves of a harsh reality. That's why you cannot have faith with your mind open. You have to deny all possibility that god does not exist.

[Ketcham82]

Yeah. I will agree with you on that one. No one can have more prove than another. Faith is a powerful thing and religious people have that advantage.

[Mike]

1 hour only? Religious debates usually last much longer than that. Hope there will be an article on the next week's Poly Post.

[JPWRana]

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

1) So is there only one god? Or just your god, your christian god? What about allah? Or shiva? or buddah? Do they exist too? And if so, who rules? And if not, why just your god?

I'd hate to sound like a fanatic... but yeah, there is just one God. If you don't believe in the bible, then what I would say would have ZERO value, and credibility to you.

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

2) Does one beliefs rely on personal experience? What about people who see UFO's? No one seems to believe them. personal beliefs have nothing to do with personal experiences. Faith is a fabric of social, moral and psychological (through mantras) acquisition from the community around you.

Based on what the bible teaches us... one's beliefs should rely on faith, NOT personal experience. HOWEVER, many have converted from X faith to Y religion, or F religion to Z faith. Base on the bible, Jehovah god created everything there was to create on the 6th day. the 7th he rested. The bible does not say what weird creatures there are, but modern science has discovered living organisms in the most extreme temperatures and environments on this planet. If they reside on other planets MY GUESS would be not, but the bible has no mention of extraterrestrials (other than satan, jesus, Jehovah, demons, and angels... basically spirits).

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

You, as a christian, cannot speak for mankind. You are a speck of sand in a mountain of religions and orthodixies.

Sadly that's how its become.

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

Like those jehova witnesses that try to convert you all the time, or those people from CCCP, or any other particular group of religious fanatics who tell you how great Jesus is, pretty much tell me that my beliefs aren't good enough. That if I don't believe in their god, then I'll go to hell.

Jehovah's Witnesses don't tell you that you'll go to hell. They don't believe in that. Also, in a very one-sided pessimistic way, your right. Try to see things in a REALISTIC way, so as not to show bias.

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

Whether I am a believer or not, someone from another religion who tells me that my religion, or god, isn't good enough is pretty much an opportunist, a fanatic, a saboteur, a bigot and blasphemous.

If someone can prove to me that my faith is incorrect, then what can i say... that they're still wrong? I am not confused, or perplexed about my faith, so I would let someone (in a civil way) talk to me about religious matters.

Wow, so they are blasphemous, and bigots. You really are being very critical of someone who tries to help. If its economic help that they try to give you, will you shun them because you think that they think that you're a loser?

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

So, to all of those Christians out there, especially those evangelical christians, this is what I say to you: You're going to have to pray harder to get us all into your church.

Thank you.

It also doesn't help when people shun us out and treat us with disrespect... but that doesn't stop us.

[JPWRana]

Originally Posted by jayandbutton

the debate posits the notion about whether there is such a thing as a God. nowhere that i can see is there any spin about any one faith versus another. some posts here immediatedly start banging on evangelism as if this were some singular faith or something. some posters point to the dude on the quad as typical behavior of christians. duh.................

you mean ketchman... hehe

Originally Posted by jayandbutton

i believe the point xiaoxue is making is not about interpretations among faiths but rather about the fact that the faithful are certain about their God and the atheists are certain about nothingness. if such is so, then what is the point of a debate short of seeing God-like signs and wonders? (and by the way, i have seen at least a half dozen)

yeah, because once we establish the fact that God exists, new issues will come to debate like trinity, non trinity, etc.

[JPWRana]

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

Sorry, I forgot to make the point that atheist also believe in some form of a god. Even though it does not take the same form of a religious god, athiest believe in some sort of force (more like mother nature) that binds everything together.

"One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods." I got this definition from www.dictionary.com

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

I happen to know a lot of athiests. My brother is one. And not that these people believe in nothingness, which is a completely ridiculous idea because we all believe in something or else we would be stoic, they just believe that the idea of a "god" has been romanticized and idolized to such a mythical level.

Hey Ketcham, i'm going to take a long shot, and guess that your parents never talked about spir