Does God Exist? Debate

[xiaoxue]

i remember one moment when the christian guy challenged the atheist about being nice. he then said that the atheist probably, or at least hopefully, is nice to his wife and kids.

the response was surreal. the atheist seemed to brag that he was gay without kids, almost acting as if all gays are like that. this simply isn't true. he did not represent gay ppl well at all.

i wish both of them had allowed more time for the audience and less for their speeches.

Originally Posted by JPWRana

I didnt see it. What did i miss guys?

[PandaMoOo]

I didn't stick around past opening arguements, it got pretty dull. The athiest guy pretty much said the usual "we have found no evidence of a god." The christian guy said "there must be a god because our world is so complex it must have been intelligently designed."

By far the christian guy was a much more elogant speaker, however he used some really poor quotes and run-ons not suitable for a lax debate such as this. His examples I felt were just quotes from other people, which is really a weak basis of evidence.

The athiest on the other hand handled his information way too laid back, and causually. His argument I felt was more logical, but that is no surprise because I believe in it.

I think the only reason the round table club got to promote their club is because they organized the event in the first place. I think it's only fair they can do whatever they want given the work they put into it.

All in all this debate hasen't changed much of minds I think, both sides did little but argue well known arguments.

[jayandbutton]

the only way the thing would have been better given the usual warmed over arguments would have been more interaction from the crowd.

i personally would have enjoyed hearing the muslim group say something.

i agree that some sort of all faiths session would be very useful.

btw, can you post something about the basketball celebration tomorrow? have not seen anything on it yet.

Originally Posted by PandaMoOo

I didn't stick around past opening arguements, it got pretty dull. The athiest guy pretty much said the usual "we have found no evidence of a god." The christian guy said "there must be a god because our world is so complex it must have been intelligently designed."

By far the christian guy was a much more elogant speaker, however he used some really poor quotes and run-ons not suitable for a lax debate such as this. His examples I felt were just quotes from other people, which is really a weak basis of evidence.

The athiest on the other hand handled his information way too laid back, and causually. His argument I felt was more logical, but that is no surprise because I believe in it.

I think the only reason the round table club got to promote their club is because they organized the event in the first place. I think it's only fair they can do whatever they want given the work they put into it.

All in all this debate hasen't changed much of minds I think, both sides did little but argue well known arguments.

[JPWRana]

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

Well, this is just my opinion. As a matter of fact I was brought up in a very strict Catholic environment. We attended mass as much as possible. I was a believer for some time during my youth, but somehow along the way I kind of lost track.

You lost track of what.... spirituality? didn't care about church? You stopped attending the meetings? (what do u call them... mass?)

Thats how it is 4 LOTS of teenagers. Peer pressure, rebelion, and "frig it and lets have fun" attitude. I STILL face those attitudes, BUT I still am keenly aware of my spirituality.

I think what's kept my interest alive is defending what I know to be as the truth, and also LOTS of world events pinpoint to what's been prophesized, so the doubt was never there. What was there 4 me was loss of interest. (before)

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

Sometimes I feel bad for that because I wish I was as adamant as you guys, but I'm not. I don't have a "personal" relationship with God. To me, there is something out there in the universe that created a chain of reaction that started all of it.

So we BOTH agree that something/someone created everything there is... but to you, IT CAN'T BE GOD. You know someone (or something) did it, but it SURELY can't be a supreme God, yet you don't know what to call it. huh...

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

I personally believe that there is life beyond our planet, because to think otherwise would be egocentric and naive. Science is just barely scratching the surface on extraterrestial life by sending rovers to mars and building stronger telescopes.

I believe that there ALSO is life beyond our planet. Their called angels.
Now THIS part is COMPLETELY theoretical, but think about it. Jehovah gave us THE WHOLE WORLD to explore, and live in. What about the angels? According to the bible, they are ALWAYS constant and loyal. Can it be that their "playground" (for a lack of better term) is the whole universe? Their body is superior to ours... they can live ON earth AND above earth. This is just theoretical. I COULD BE completely wrong, but LOGICALLY it would make sense. The bible doesn't talk about it, because it's not important to us.

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

Oh, and just to be clear. I am agnostic. So I do happen to believe there is a God. I just don't believe it in the same way religious people see it.

Then who do you think created the universe and everything about it... if its not God?

[Keng]

Some stuff are just not unexplainable.

[JPWRana]

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

I guess what I meant is what you personally believe to be true. You can't prove an athiest that the Bible is the ultimate fact book. And an athiest can't tell you that prehistoric bones are the key evidence that life on earth did not begin with a man and a woman. You have your own beliefs and because of that, no one else can convince you otherwise. It is up to you to give up your beliefs, just as it is up to athiests to acquire them.

I'm sure if i were to ask an atheist:

1) Did the bible exist before you were born? I'm sure he'll say yes.

2) Did the bible exist 100 yrs ago? 200 yrs ago? I'm sure he'll say yes due to old pixes or from old books that mention about it.

Now, assuming he agrees that the bible has some age, 2 Tim 3:1-5, along with Matthew 24:3-14 tells us what conditions ON EARTH would be expected in "the final days".

Heck, he can even get a bible thats MORE THAN 200 yrs old and read it 4 himself.

Now that the proof is there, I really don't know what he can say to refute that.

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

Science and religion compete in the same race to find the riddling answers we've had since birth. Just because you believe, or root, for any one of them doesn't mean that it's the same for everyone.

Not always. Science and religion have at times agreed in harmony.

Examples:

1) Hygiene: when ur sick, according to the Old Testament, you can't be near people.

2) Sanitation: When u go take a dump, according to the Old Testament, u should go away, scoop a hole, do your business, then cover it up once ur done. That was an "advanced" idea at the time.

3) Gravity: The bible talks about the earth hanging "on the nothing' (i hope that's how its translated from spanish)

4) The earth is round: The bible also mentions that... WE'LL BEFORE Columbus and "the flat earth".


There are others but those are the ones that are at the top of my head.

[JPWRana]

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

Well, let me tell you. You try to pull this off on any athiest and they're going to tell you that the Bible, old testament or new testament, is mere fiction.

Then I'll tell them, "so there can only be 1 right answer. Are billions of people wrong and YOU are right? "

And i'll ask him how many guides have sufficed with a ONLY 1ST EDITION.

[JPWRana]

Originally Posted by xiaoxue

here is some more food for discussion:

1. why label people with faith "religious" as if that means dogmatic?
i have very strong faith in Him, yet i believe i am open in the way other ppl view their faith.

I agree. The term i'd feel more comfortable with is "spiritual".

Originally Posted by xiaoxue

2. while the Bible IS the ultimate Word, particularly verbatim quotes in the NT from the Almighty, there is room for interpretation in many cases. your interpretation of REV 20-22 differs from mine. i see it clearly written that there will be no more Gods coming to this planet until the rapture (get ready, friends), there is provision for prophets such as joseph smith who was given prophecy to begin the LDS faith.

Since I have a spanish bible, I just tried 2 find the first english online bible that I could find... here it is.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=5 379618

Rev 22:18-19

[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

To me, this means that whoever takes out, or add to the "book" will be in big trouble. THEREFORE, I don't understand the justification of "the book of mormon" COMPLIMENTING the bible. If it was to be another book of the bible, why do THEY have that book SEPERATELY.

Originally Posted by xiaoxue

3. i believe in the trihune God. you don't. that's okay. even ppl in my church pray to the Father and others pray to Jesus, the latter based upon scripture that states that the only way to the Father is through the Son. no big deal. we will see you in heaven anyway.

We'll I don't believe in the trihune God cuz... hehe, I don't know what that is. I go to a Spanish congregation, so forgive me if I can't make the biblical/religious translations in my head. What's a trihune God?

About heaven... that's another story. Can you find me a verse in the bible that states/implies/suggests that a good person that dies goes to heaven?

Originally Posted by xiaoxue

now what about an all faiths assembly?

wouldn't that be cool?

not a debate but rather what our "God" means to us!

I think that'd be dissing Jehovah. Imagine, all these ppl coming to me if I were the ALMIGHTY, and they tell me

"oh to me you mean your everything"

"to me I don't believe in you"

"to me, I know you exist, but that's it"

"to me, I think you exist, but science is kicking your butt"

I'd be kind of ticked off.

[JPWRana]

Originally Posted by PandaMoOo

What a bold statement, faith and over confidence in all walks of life seem to only lead to failure.

I've seen, heard, read, and experience PLENTY of examples where faith HASN'T led to failure. So for it to "ONLY LEAD TO FAILURE" THAT is a bold statement.

Originally Posted by PandaMoOo

I don't see how anyone can call it an pure advantage, a trade-off perhaps for people who are weak and need some organization to guide their morals and values.

Tell that to the "weak" people that had faith in Jesus and he cured them.

Originally Posted by PandaMoOo

I've seen numerous times that "faith" has psychologically kept people up, it's nescessary for some people. I've seen more times that faith has corrupted people by giving them false hope or pride and allowed them to fail though.

The Catholic religion is a PRIME EXAMPLE of countless corruption scandals. I'm sure if I go to like downtown LA, every person in the block will tell me of a time the church has ticked them, jipped them, or ripped them off. That does shatter their hope and faith.

Originally Posted by PandaMoOo

On the other hand, by choosing faith a lot of independant thought and moral is given up. All too often I wonder if my christian friends are just being nice "because someone told them to be" rather then "it makes everyone better off." If you spent the time I spent analyzing the fallacies in faith, you'd begin to see some of the cons of it.

Both those reasons are good reasons. You wanna know y?

Originally Posted by PandaMoOo

The general open ended comments about how athiests are "never enlightened" are unsupported. My family was strongly christian, I became athiest early in high school for a majority of the reasons above.

I'm sorry to hear that you got dissed by faith. I've been dissed at my church too, but I know we'll enough that I'll try my hardest to serve Jehovah God NOT for the priests or elders or ministers, but because its my duty/responsibility.

Originally Posted by PandaMoOo

Faith is a trade-off. It's not right for everyone. It makes some people better, some people worse. If you deny this simple observation, you aren't even beginning to consider both sides.

Faith is a trade-off of what? It SHOULD be right for everyone. People's personalities will always clash with ideas, faith, etc.

[xiaoxue]

rana, you offer some good insights into these issues and your views of them.

some comments:

1. the trihune God means to certain members of the flock that the Father sent a part of Him to the Earth as a man. this of course is prophesized in the OT in several books and subsequently reported to Mary that she will carry the Father's seed as the ultimate blessing for any mortal. i believe that this allowed the Father greater connectivity with the world he created, but more importantly allowed that the ultimate price to be paid, our salvation.

2. i accept you as a Brother not simply because of our common beliefs but also that we are all Brothers. that said, i will see you beyond the gates for you have accepted the Lord as your savior. through grace you are redeemed. i also believe that those from other faiths also can receive this ultimate gift even though they may not name our savior the same name. many call Him Yeshuya or Yeshua which is the ancient Hebrew term.

3. i believe your interpretation of the Book of Revelation is open to another view. while i am not a member of the LDS faith, i accept the notion that joseph smith did indeed receive a message to evangelize the west. because other european based faiths do not accept this view, such as Catholics and Protestants, those called Mormons needed to have their own book. that's okay with me and no hit on the same Father who they too love and adore.

4. finally, i believe that an all faiths assembly pays homage to GOD regardless of His Holy Name. it further discredits the emptiness and futility of atheists and others who choose to laugh away our calling. if one more student accepts this view it will be time well spent.

5. yes, church is a turnoff to young people. i left the church too simply because it was a bunch of old ppl. i found a new calling. we have lots of groups on campus who quietly go about their missionary callings. let's unite them!

may the blessings overflow your house!

Originally Posted by JPWRana

I've seen, heard, read, and experience PLENTY of examples where faith HASN'T led to failure. So for it to "ONLY LEAD TO FAILURE" THAT is a bold statement.



Tell that to the "weak" people that had faith in Jesus and he cured them.




The Catholic religion is a PRIME EXAMPLE of countless corruption scandals. I'm sure if I go to like downtown LA, every person in the block will tell me of a time the church has ticked them, jipped them, or ripped them off. That does shatter their hope and faith.



Both those reasons are good reasons. You wanna know y?



I'm sorry to hear that you got dissed by faith. I've been dissed at my church too, but I know we'll enough that I'll try my hardest to serve Jehovah God NOT for the priests or elders or ministers, but because its my duty/responsibility.




Faith is a trade-off of what? It SHOULD be right for everyone. People's personalities will always clash with ideas, faith, etc.

[PandaMoOo]

Originally Posted by JPWRana

I've seen, heard, read, and experience PLENTY of examples where faith HASN'T led to failure. So for it to "ONLY LEAD TO FAILURE" THAT is a bold statement.

Indeed I made a bold statement there, I was wrong to state it that way. I meant to say that in my 20 years of living I have not found any exception reason to believe that faith has brought success that is not explained by the psycholigical confidence it could provide.

You keep stating that you have experienced plenty of times faith has been so powerful, please describe in detail how then if you could?

[jayandbutton]

i don't know what rana's experiences are since i don't know who rana is. but i can share just one of many experiences. one day i got a phone call from a police officer who said that my wife was in a terrible car wreck where she and a train collided. the officer told me she was being medevacuated to a trauma center, was clinging to life but barely, and that those experts on scene said to hold out no hope because it was almost certain she would be DOA at the hospital.

immediately i called for the pastor of our church. we met and prayed all the way down to the trauma center about an hour away. when we arrived my wife was laid out on a table, unconscious and soaked everywhere in blood. her vitals were at bare minimums. at our arrival she awakened into full consciousness. the physicians were astounded, and one said it was a miracle. within two weeks she was fully healed.

your call, just fool's luck or the power of something or somebody else?

Originally Posted by PandaMoOo

Indeed I made a bold statement there, I was wrong to state it that way. I meant to say that in my 20 years of living I have not found any exception reason to believe that faith has brought success that is not explained by the psycholigical confidence it could provide.

You keep stating that you have experienced plenty of times faith has been so powerful, please describe in detail how then if you could?

[JPWRana]

Originally Posted by xiaoxue

some comments:

1. the trihune God means to certain members of the flock that the Father sent a part of Him to the Earth as a man. this of course is prophesized in the OT in several books and subsequently reported to Mary that she will carry the Father's seed as the ultimate blessing for any mortal. i believe that this allowed the Father greater connectivity with the world he created, but more importantly allowed that the ultimate price to be paid, our salvation.

Oh ok. I had thought it was tribune, and i was being sarcastic.

I have been conducting an ongoing research since Nov. that proves Jesus is NOT Jehovah (physically, they are not the same person). I don't know if thats what trihune God means.

Originally Posted by xiaoxue

2. i accept you as a Brother not simply because of our common beliefs but also that we are all Brothers. that said, i will see you beyond the gates for you have accepted the Lord as your savior. through grace you are redeemed. i also believe that those from other faiths also can receive this ultimate gift even though they may not name our savior the same name. many call Him Yeshuya or Yeshua which is the ancient Hebrew term.

I can't technically accept you as my (spiritual) brother, because we don't share the SAME faith. What do you mean "beyond the gates"?

What is the "ultimate gift"?

Math 6:9-10... where Jesus tells us something about his fathers name (i can't translate that from spanish, and I'm in class).

Originally Posted by xiaoxue

3. i believe your interpretation of the Book of Revelation is open to another view. while i am not a member of the LDS faith, i accept the notion that joseph smith did indeed receive a message to evangelize the west. because other european based faiths do not accept this view, such as Catholics and Protestants, those called Mormons needed to have their own book. that's okay with me and no hit on the same Father who they too love and adore.

If someone tells me not to add or take out from a book, I guess its open to interpretation:

1) don't add or take out words

2) don't add or take out the covers

3) don't add or take out the book's smell.

Originally Posted by xiaoxue

4. finally, i believe that an all faiths assembly pays homage to GOD regardless of His Holy Name. it further discredits the emptiness and futility of atheists and others who choose to laugh away our calling. if one more student accepts this view it will be time well spent.

What biblical backing do you have to believe that?

[jayandbutton]

i think xiaoxue means that the father created a divine man that is a part of him. the other term frequently used is the holy trinity, that of the father, the son, and the holy spirit. in effect, that means we all of faith are a part of his body...ie, emmanuel, or god with us.

does a debate about whether jesus is or is not a part of the father really reduce the significance of god's almighty power and reach?

i say not.

Originally Posted by JPWRana

Oh ok. I had thought it was tribune, and i was being sarcastic.

I have been conducting an ongoing research since Nov. that proves Jesus is NOT Jehovah (physically, they are not the same person). I don't know if thats what trihune God means.



I can't technically accept you as my (spiritual) brother, because we don't share the SAME faith. What do you mean "beyond the gates"?

What is the "ultimate gift"?

Math 6:9-10... where Jesus tells us something about his fathers name (i can't translate that from spanish, and I'm in class).



If someone tells me not to add or take out from a book, I guess its open to interpretation:

1) don't add or take out words

2) don't add or take out the covers

3) don't add or take out the book's smell.




What biblical backing do you have to believe that?

[Keng]

Originally Posted by jayandbutton

i don't know what rana's experiences are since i don't know who rana is. but i can share just one of many experiences. one day i got a phone call from a police officer who said that my wife was in a terrible car wreck where she and a train collided. the officer told me she was being medevacuated to a trauma center, was clinging to life but barely, and that those experts on scene said to hold out no hope because it was almost certain she would be DOA at the hospital.

immediately i called for the pastor of our church. we met and prayed all the way down to the trauma center about an hour away. when we arrived my wife was laid out on a table, unconscious and soaked everywhere in blood. her vitals were at bare minimums. at our arrival she awakened into full consciousness. the physicians were astounded, and one said it was a miracle. within two weeks she was fully healed.

your call, just fool's luck or the power of something or somebody else?

World is all about stastics, probabilty and chance.

[xiaoxue]

zero chance to live = probability 0.00000000000000
therefore, only higher power possible to redress.
end of discussion.

great post, jaybut.....yet another of the master's miracles!

Originally Posted by Keng

World is all about stastics, probabilty and chance.

[Ketcham82]

Well, it's clear that JPWRana really knows a lot about the universe. Maybe I should listen to him more often.

I wonder what could be different between a man who claims to know it all and a man who claims to know nothing at all. What I've stated here in this thread is only my opinion. I haven't stated any claim as fact. But apparently there are some people who do claim to know it all based on one book.

Maybe I should really listen to JPWRana.

[jayandbutton]

it's not clear what if any denomination belongs to rana but he has raised the bar here. i personally believe he is a bit dogmatic and rigid in his interpretations but these issues are always fascinating fodder.

look for a ton of posts again from the same guy sometime tonight after midnight. keep on truckin' rana!

in the meantime, i'd welcome posts from various faiths. where are you?

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

Well, it's clear that JPWRana really knows a lot about the universe. Maybe I should listen to him more often.

I wonder what could be different between a man who claims to know it all and a man who claims to know nothing at all. What I've stated here in this thread is only my opinion. I haven't stated any claim as fact. But apparently there are some people who do claim to know it all based on one book.

Maybe I