Does God Exist? Debate

[JPWRana]

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

I understand your frustration towards the non-believers of any faith. And I'm sorry for making a presumption regarding athiests so quickly. What I meant is that athiests, though they do not believe in a god, they believe in some sort of force, not an entity, but rather something that binds everything together and destroys it apart.

Non-atheists believe in the same thing... except that this "force" is called God. Don't atheists believe in the big bang theory? Where everything came to be and just is now?

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

I'm not a biology or science expert to tell you how atoms and molecules interact within the universe, but I can tell you that science, just like religion, is man's evolutionary effort to answer puzzling questions such as "where do we come from?" or "what happens after one dies?" or "why do we exist?"

The bibles DOES have some science in there, but its intent WAS NOT TO BE A SCIENCE BOOK. It was meant to be a social/moral/religious guidance book to all of mankind.

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

And when I referred to athiest believing that the notion of a "god" has been idolized by religions, I meant that through scriptures like the Bible, man has fantasized metaphors and fabricated hallucinations to make people believe that such a man can levitate from the ground. The ignorant can be easily taken by these kinds of claims. Just remember that the Bible is a book comprised by men. There is no actual evidence that such a psychotic "god" wrote it. The Bible was written and edited by men in search of a spiritual answer to their void. And it seems to work for those who are willing enough to blind themselves of a harsh reality. That's why you cannot have faith with your mind open. You have to deny all possibility that god does not exist.

Yes, 40 men to be exact... within a span of 1600 years, and all share the same theme/viewpoint. Can any other 40 men do that?

Notice how also in this book... the bible, there NEVER WAS A 2nd edition. The 1st is all we need. It has stood the test of time.

Jehovah God didn't write the book literally. The 40 men that he sent to write under the guidance of the holy spirit were the ones that wrote it.

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

The Bible was written and edited by men in search of a spiritual answer to their void.

I take it you haven't read the bible then. Or else any educated reader will tell you that none of these men had "voids"

[JPWRana]

Originally Posted by xiaoxue

i think all people struggle with this set of beliefs. and we cannot throw a blanket over all atheists no more easily than we can those who believe in any God. some atheists i know believe in that cosmic "force" you mention, and others have no such thought or theory at all.

I blame the parents there for not teaching their kids about spirituality.

Originally Posted by xiaoxue

you are correct as well that some believers fantasize things. some see things through faith that others do not see. and some credit every act to God's Will. i disagree with this notion, for the God i know allows us to choose.

God DOES TAKE CARE of those who ARE following(trying) his path. I do agree also about free will. It's talked about in the book of Job.

Originally Posted by xiaoxue

i personally hold no ill will to non believers. doubting Thomases have been on the earth for all time. i have just as much trouble with anybody who pushes a faith-based agenda to suit personal agendas as much as the so called scientists who use physics or laws of science to disprove what many of us know to be true.

You know, you can simply and politely tell them that your not interested at the moment. I have worked with people that still persist to try and preach on to someone who is telling them they're not interested, and I remind him/her that we shouldn't push. It actually makes it worse because then they get annoyed.

[JPWRana]

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

Yeah. I will agree with you on that one. No one can have more prove than another. Faith is a powerful thing and religious people have that advantage.

No one can have more prove than another? Then that means that either the 1/2 of the world that's atheist are stupid, or 1/2 of the world that aren't atheist are the stupid ones.

Wow! That's such a strong statement you put. You seem so sure of that.

[xiaoxue]

yahweh
the lord
allah
prince of peace
yeshuya
buddah
jehova
messiah
savior
jesus
king of kings

and many other monickers...all the same thing to me.

and may i presume that you believe in the holy trinity? if so, father-son-holy ghost? yes?

LDS is church of jesus christ of latter day saints. non LDS ppl sometimes really bang on this group, why i don't know. i admire their zeal for what they believe. why can't others believe that God delivered a message to a prophet in this hemisphere that led to the Book of Mormon? i can handle that. it's not my upbringing but the focus is not on anyone but the holy one. i have been to mosques, temples, cathedrals, and storefront churches for so called holy rollers. you can feel the spirit in all of them. just go to where you feel comfortable. my brother is catholic. all those rituals, hail marys and repeat after me's drive me nuts, but okay for him. just go...somewhere! yes?

Originally Posted by JPWRana

I hear ya. My grandma is a hardcore catholic, and I'm astounded at the things she believes in.

What is LDS faith?




Either they are miracles, OR they are just lucky... remember, in the world of probability and statistics, EVERYTHING has a chance.

btw, JEHOVAH is the Almighty God.

[xiaoxue]

believers don't, or at least shouldn't, call nonbelievers stupid.

some among this group simply are either misinformed or uninformed. that is what prompts evangelism for scripture tells us to spread the gospel or good news that the mighty one atoned for all our sins and only through him can we attain peace and joy within.

the question then becomes HOW you do that.

being pushy rarely accomplishes much. conversely, if christ's love becomes so prevailing it will indeed do just that, and the enemy ALWAYS retreats.

i think ppl like that guy in the quad does more harm than good. but it's free speech.

i'd like to see an all faiths demonstration on the campus to show unity. perhaps the round earth society might become enlightened via measures such as this.

what do you think?

[JPWRana]

Originally Posted by xiaoxue

yahweh
the lord
allah
prince of peace
yeshuya
buddah
jehova
messiah
savior
jesus
king of kings

and many other monickers...all the same thing to me.

the lord, prince of peace, messiah, savior, and king of kings are just titles.

allah, yeshuya (i think, 1st time i hear that name), buddah, Jehovah, and Jesus aren't titles. If you believe that there is one God, then pick from the list of gods that HAVE NAMES. I already did.

Originally Posted by xiaoxue

and may i presume that you believe in the holy trinity? if so, father-son-holy ghost? yes?

Actually xiaoxue, I don't believe in the holy trinity. I do believe in Jehovah the Almighty God, Jesus his son, and the holy spirit. But I don't believe that they are one.

Originally Posted by xiaoxue

LDS is church of jesus christ of latter day saints. non LDS ppl sometimes really bang on this group, why i don't know. i admire their zeal for what they believe. why can't others believe that God delivered a message to a prophet in this hemisphere that led to the Book of Mormon? i can handle that. it's not my upbringing but the focus is not on anyone but the holy one. i have been to mosques, temples, cathedrals, and storefront churches for so called holy rollers. you can feel the spirit in all of them. just go to where you feel comfortable. my brother is catholic. all those rituals, hail marys and repeat after me's drive me nuts, but okay for him. just go...somewhere! yes?

Let me just whip out my bible here.... oh here it is: Revelation 22:18, 19... two of the four LAST VERSES OF THE BIBLE... that should tell you why God didn't deliver another prophet, whether it be in northern hemisphere, or in Antarctica, or in the Bermuda Triangle.

What is a holy roller?

Actually, going to where one is comfortable is a bit misleading (if that's the correct word?)... because people will go (usually) to where its easier, less work required, etc. Staying a christian IS NOT EASY WORK.

All those Catholic rituals... MANY of them have no biblical support... they're just rituals.

[JPWRana]

I think the guy in the quad will bring more harm than good. I'm pretty sure ppl will leave all ticked off and such.

[Admin]

Originally Posted by JPWRana

I think the guy in the quad will bring more harm than good. I'm pretty sure ppl will leave all ticked off and such.

You can't just simply assume that. I think it was a great idea for the two organizations to setup such event on campus. The event truly brings out the meaning of diversity onto campus.

JPWRana, you brought up a lot of interesting responses in which I agree and disagree. Is great to see different opinions on this topic and rather than arguing who is right or wrong, why not share your beliefs and/or knowledge so maybe others can benefit from it. I also dislike how some claim that they are christians and yet they blatantly criticize others.

[JPWRana]

I know what happens when i SHARE my beliefs. People start to argue, criticize, and or leave mad/upset.

when an argument starts, this is what happens:



But if you have SPECIFIC questions, I'd be glad to answer them.

btw, which points do you disagree in kaycee?

[Ketcham82]

Well, this is just my opinion. As a matter of fact I was brought up in a very strict Catholic environment. We attended mass as much as possible. I was a believer for some time during my youth, but somehow along the way I kind of lost track. Sometimes I feel bad for that because I wish I was as adamant as you guys, but I'm not. I don't have a "personal" relationship with God. To me, there is something out there in the universe that created a chain of reaction that started all of it. I personally believe that there is life beyond our planet, because to think otherwise would be egocentric and naive. Science is just barely scratching the surface on extraterrestial life by sending rovers to mars and building stronger telescopes.

I think life is too short to delve into the infinite possibilities of science as it tries to discover man's origin. And I think that's why most people resort to religion, because they understand that life is too precious to dwindle down to numbers and equations.


Oh, and just to be clear. I am agnostic. So I do happen to believe there is a God. I just don't believe it in the same way religious people see it.

[Ketcham82]

Originally Posted by JPWRana

No one can have more prove than another? Then that means that either the 1/2 of the world that's atheist are stupid, or 1/2 of the world that aren't atheist are the stupid ones.

Wow! That's such a strong statement you put. You seem so sure of that.

I guess what I meant is what you personally believe to be true. You can't prove an athiest that the Bible is the ultimate fact book. And an athiest can't tell you that prehistoric bones are the key evidence that life on earth did not begin with a man and a woman. You have your own beliefs and because of that, no one else can convince you otherwise. It is up to you to give up your beliefs, just as it is up to athiests to acquire them.

Science and religion compete in the same race to find the riddling answers we've had since birth. Just because you believe, or root, for any one of them doesn't mean that it's the same for everyone.

[Ketcham82]

Originally Posted by JPWRana

Notice how also in this book... the bible, there NEVER WAS A 2nd edition. The 1st is all we need. It has stood the test of time.

Jehovah God didn't write the book literally. The 40 men that he sent to write under the guidance of the holy spirit were the ones that wrote it.


I take it you haven't read the bible then. Or else any educated reader will tell you that none of these men had "voids"

Well, let me tell you. You try to pull this off on any athiest and they're going to tell you that the Bible, old testament or new testament, is mere fiction.

[JPWRana]

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

Well, let me tell you. You try to pull this off on any athiest and they're going to tell you that the Bible, old testament or new testament, is mere fiction.

we'll... I do have a few more cards up my sleeves... but it delves a bit deeper.

[xiaoxue]

here is some more food for discussion:

1. why label people with faith "religious" as if that means dogmatic?
i have very strong faith in Him, yet i believe i am open in the way other ppl view their faith.

2. while the Bible IS the ultimate Word, particularly verbatim quotes in the NT from the Almighty, there is room for interpretation in many cases. your interpretation of REV 20-22 differs from mine. i see it clearly written that there will be no more Gods coming to this planet until the rapture (get ready, friends), there is provision for prophets such as joseph smith who was given prophecy to begin the LDS faith.

3. i believe in the trihune God. you don't. that's okay. even ppl in my church pray to the Father and others pray to Jesus, the latter based upon scripture that states that the only way to the Father is through the Son. no big deal. we will see you in heaven anyway.

now what about an all faiths assembly?

wouldn't that be cool?

not a debate but rather what our "God" means to us!

[jayandbutton]

this is one of the most intelligent threads i have seen in some time. it clearly shows posters have differences of opinion but respect each others views.

now all we need to do is to find steven, the resident atheist, who always posts three or four word questions, ever the skeptic of everything he cannot hold in his hand.

rock on!

Originally Posted by xiaoxue

here is some more food for discussion:

1. why label people with faith "religious" as if that means dogmatic?
i have very strong faith in Him, yet i believe i am open in the way other ppl view their faith.

2. while the Bible IS the ultimate Word, particularly verbatim quotes in the NT from the Almighty, there is room for interpretation in many cases. your interpretation of REV 20-22 differs from mine. i see it clearly written that there will be no more Gods coming to this planet until the rapture (get ready, friends), there is provision for prophets such as joseph smith who was given prophecy to begin the LDS faith.

3. i believe in the trihune God. you don't. that's okay. even ppl in my church pray to the Father and others pray to Jesus, the latter based upon scripture that states that the only way to the Father is through the Son. no big deal. we will see you in heaven anyway.

now what about an all faiths assembly?

wouldn't that be cool?

not a debate but rather what our "God" means to us!

[PandaMoOo]

Originally Posted by Ketcham82

Yeah. I will agree with you on that one. No one can have more prove than another. Faith is a powerful thing and religious people have that advantage.

What a bold statement, faith and over confidence in all walks of life seem to only lead to failure. I don't see how anyone can call it an pure advantage, a trade-off perhaps for people who are weak and need some organization to guide their morals and values. I've seen numerous times that "faith" has psychologically kept people up, it's nescessary for some people. I've seen more times that faith has corrupted people by giving them false hope or pride and allowed them to fail though.

On the other hand, by choosing faith a lot of independant thought and moral is given up. All too often I wonder if my christian friends are just being nice "because someone told them to be" rather then "it makes everyone better off." If you spent the time I spent analyzing the fallacies in faith, you'd begin to see some of the cons of it.

The general open ended comments about how athiests are "never enlightened" are unsupported. My family was strongly christian, I became athiest early in high school for a majority of the reasons above. I think the word ketcham82 is looking for agnostic - " One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism."

Faith is a trade-off. It's not right for everyone. It makes some people better, some people worse. If you deny this simple observation, you aren't even beginning to consider both sides.

[jayandbutton]

this debate was a bit of a downer.

the christian guy spent way too much time talking about science and did not need to. godly signs and wonders abound and have been verified as something much more than pure coincidences.

and another question: why did the round earth society get a five minute introduction to sell their club and try to recruit members while all of the other campus groups sat quietly on the sidelines? this simply is not fair.

either you give all the groups an equal microphone or none of them get one. i asked the muslim group about this and they were just as annoyed as were all of the judeo-christian ones.

Originally Posted by PandaMoOo

What a bold statement, faith and over confidence in all walks of life seem to only lead to failure. I don't see how anyone can call it an pure advantage, a trade-off perhaps for people who are weak and need some organization to guide their morals and values. I've seen numerous times that "faith" has psychologically kept people up, it's nescessary for some people. I've seen more times that faith has corrupted people by giving them false hope or pride and allowed them to fail though.

On the other hand, by choosing faith a lot of independant thought and moral is given up. All too often I wonder if my christian friends are just being nice "because someone told them to be" rather then "it makes everyone better off." If you spent the time I spent analyzing the fallacies in faith, you'd begin to see some of the cons of it.

The general open ended comments about how athiests are "never enlightened" are unsupported. My family was strongly christian, I became athiest early in high school for a majority of the reasons above. I think the word ketcham82 is looking for agnostic - " One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism."

Faith is a trade-off. It's not right for everyone. It makes some people better, some people worse. If you deny this simple observation, you aren't even beginning to consider both sides.

[JPWRana]

i cant type that much ritenow cuz im in IE429. once i get out i'll elaborate more on some of ur guys's view.

[xiaoxue]

right on about the free commercial for the round earth group.

since when do they get to promote their group and since when does their guy get to do the intros and shape the agenda? that is not balance.

you apparently missed the part where the christian guy FINALLY mentioned Jesus. i agree that the early comments were highly scientific but then he rallied. from there the christian turned atheist flippantly acted as if Christ were just another guy like George Washington!!!!

and kudos to the Muslim group for keeping their cool, too.