Gay Bishop - Page 4

**zoedragon** · 10-01-04, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KayCee

Steven, do you believe in sin? Why do you think people sin in their daily my one and only so called life?

I know this was directed at Steven, but I can't seem to shut up today.

The dictionary defines "sin" as "A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate." Those who believe in the teachings of the Bible will use that as their measuring stick for what sin is. Others may use societal laws to define what sin is. Still others define sin according to what they feel in their hearts. Back in the days of segregation there were laws telling people it was a "sin" for a black man to use a "white" bathroom. If it weren't for people who thought for themselves and had a different concept of sin, such injustices would still be widespread.

As for why people sin in their daily lives? Again, it depends on your concept of what sin is. Those like the family I mentioned who thought drinking and dancing were sins definitely think people sin every day. They probably think people sin everyday because these "sinners" don't know any better and need to be guided by the Bible.

I personally think if you're not harming anyone, you're not sinning. I help old ladies with their groceries and give food to the homeless, but if I start having sex without being married first am I automatically a sinner? To some I am. But to me I'm just a person who is doing what I think is right in my heart.

And that is what I think is important. I may not believe in all the teachings of the Bible, but I do believe in the general ideas behind a lot of religious principles: be good to one another, love not hate, help those in need, things like that. People who lose sight of this are those who are too mired in the details.

Steven · 10-01-04, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KayCee

Christians believe the bible is the fact of my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called life. It should contain all the teachings of how to become a christian and how you can be saved. Of course, one needs to attend church on Sunday in addition to reading the bible.
zoedragon has a lot of points jot down. I was raised in a christian household most of my my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called life and I wouldn't trade off my faith as a christian with anything else. Christianity is my my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called my one and only so called life.

You have told me what Christians believe is fact, what they need to do to be good Christians, and convince others to follow them. But what I want to know is what empirical evidence do they have for believing in their religion's validity?

Some Christians may have beliefs based on reason rather than faith, but their logic is based on false data. For example, they may say that since the Bible is the truth, God must exists. But their premise is false. There is no empirical evidence to show that the Bible is the truth. They may counter with the fact that God validates the Bible. But their argument would be false again because their premise is false. You would have to find out whether God exists before the argument has any validity. This logical fallacy is called a circular argument.

**PandaMoOo** · 10-01-04, 02:38 PM

Well said there Steven. Penn and Teller have an episode on people thinking the Bible is literary truth, which of course they debunk.

For example, everyone remembers how Moses parted the "Red Sea" right? to help the escaping slaves be free? Well... in the area the only two possible bodies of water they could have crossed were the Red Sea, which is a 200 mile walk. Or the Reed River, which is a swamp- that sometimes when its dry and windy peels away and is about 2 miles long. Both cases are relatively a) not possible to walk. b) not a miracle.

Most people I know who are very religious and reasonable people look at the Bible as a way to live your life metaphorically, not to be interrupted as fact. I am annoyed when people use the Bible and point to it as a work of Fact, when it was written by people. I mean... do a little research into the Bible and there's sometimes many different versions of the same story, how can they all versions be true?

And why must christians insist on trying to get others to follow them? I feel silly answering a whole bunch of "why?" questions without asking a few of my own. The christian clubs/organizations/students on campus are always busy asking me religious questions when I walk around. One such conversation this week:

Female: "Hello"
Me: "Oh, hello?"
Female: "Would you be interested in studying the bible on campus?"
Me: "No thanks, I'm not religious."
Female: "Why is that?"
Me: "I don't find much reason or purpose to believing in something I can not test or see."
Female: "Why?"
Me: "Have a good day."

Anyone else get one of those conversations? Or how about the "I am trying to doing a survey...." Perhaps I should have asked why her faith requires her to question me about my life; but I doubt her mind is open enough to give me a reasonable answer.

Steven · 10-01-04, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PandaMoOo

Anyone else get one of those conversations? Or how about the "I am trying to doing a survey...." Perhaps I should have asked why her faith requires her to question me about my my one and only so called my one and only so called life; but I doubt her mind is open enough to give me a reasonable answer.

I have not had any conversations with religious zealots recently. But that is probably because I make sure to stay several feet away from them. I have done this ever since I encountered the LaRouche fantatics.

**zoedragon** · 10-03-04, 10:43 AM

I find that your chances of getting caught by any one of these "surveyors" drops dramatically when you refuse to make eye contact. Just duck your head and walk very purposefully in a direction away from them. Only the most persistent will try to get your attention.

I got caught by a LaRouche fanatic last year myself. They were unfortunately parked in front of the post office I had to get into, so walking purposefully in another direction would have taken me away from where I needed to go. Bastards.

**PandaMoOo** · 10-03-04, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven

I have not had any conversations with religious zealots recently. But that is probably because I make sure to stay several feet away from them. I have done this ever since I encountered the LaRouche fantatics.

LaRouche? Whats that mean? A religion?

Steven · 10-03-04, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PandaMoOo

LaRouche? Whats that mean? A religion?

LaRouche ran in the Democratic Party's primary. Many of his young supporters came to Cal Poly Pomona. "School sucks" and "all of this is an illusion", are two of the several things I remember his supporters saying.

**PandaMoOo** · 10-03-04, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven

LaRouche ran in the Democratic Party's primary. Many of his young supporters came to Cal Poly Pomona. "School sucks" and "all of this is an illusion", are two of the several things I remember his supporters saying.

What the? Uneducated folk? There are some nuts out there...

jamarquez · 10-03-04, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PandaMoOo

Lutherans don't believe Mary should be worshipped or prayed to. They're also much more relaxed about religion in my opinon....

Just to let you know Catholics (which i am) do not "Worship" Mary or other saints. Please don't get this whole topic ???

We are praying/talking to them to pray for us or a family member like you do to a friend. Like If some one came up to you and said "Pray for me" or "Keep my mother in your prayers" There is no "Worshiping" going on.

**zoedragon** · 10-04-04, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamarquez

Just to let you know Catholics (which i am) do not "Worship" Mary or other saints. Please don't get this whole topic ???

We are praying/talking to them to pray for us or a family member like you do to a friend. Like If some one came up to you and said "Pray for me" or "Keep my mother in your prayers" There is no "Worshiping" going on.

That's not how some Christians see it. One of my best friends is a non-Catholic Christian (Baptist I think? Her entire family is deeply religious and quite conservative as a result) and they don't understand all the saints, nor do they try to. It looks like saint-worship to them, and they just find it weird.

Does having strong faith in a religion mean you close your mind to everything else? Is everyone who isn't of your faith just plain wrong?

jamarquez · 10-04-04, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoedragon

That's not how some Christians see it. One of my best friends is a non-Catholic Christian (Baptist I think? Her entire family is deeply religious and quite conservative as a result) and they don't understand all the saints, nor do they try to. It looks like saint-worship to them, and they just find it weird.

Does having strong faith in a religion mean you close your mind to everything else? Is everyone who isn't of your faith just plain wrong?

Well then, tell your friend to EMAIL me and I will be more then happy to go over the Catholic Religion with her. I dont how she and others wouldn't know because every "Christian Religion" is traced back to Catholic Religion. All these other Church's have broken off from other religions that where broken off from Catholics.

Anyways, if she/you want more you can Email me.

Your question about having a "closed mind." Well that depends on the issue you are talking about. I believe I have a somewhat opened mind and I TRY to understand where people are coming from and there are issues that I do agree with others that the Church doesn't like (Gay Marriage). and there are issues that I agree with, with the church (Abortion.) The way you are brought up and your Values play a HUGH deal in you political Affiliation and as a person. Many people deeply into their religion in MY Church who believe everything that is said in the bible is wrong (Acting on Homosexuality, Abortion, lying, etc... ) tend to be Republicans, however I will consider my self a monderate Democrat by where i stand on issues. I get alot of "Why are you democrat" by i defend myself.

**zoedragon** · 10-04-04, 07:17 PM

That you attempt to understand "the other side" is commendable. I just wish more people would do the same. Although I dislike what religion has done to a lot of people (made them intolerant), I can see the benefits of it also. It is a source of hope for those experiencing desperate times. It brings a sense of calm to others.

My mom used to have a terrible temper. She'd get upset, throw things, yell and be generally scary. Then she got into Buddhism and became a much, much calmer person. She learned to accept things for what they were, finally recongizing that screaming about it wasn't going to fix anything. She has an inner peace about her now that I think is much better for her health. Anger never heals anything.

I guess my point is that there isn't any one "correct" religion. If it helps you without oppressing others, then I'm all for it.

jamarquez · 10-04-04, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoedragon

Then she got into Buddhism and became a much, much calmer person. She learned to accept things for what they were, finally recongizing that screaming about it wasn't going to fix anything. She has an inner peace about her now that I think is much better for her health. Anger never heals anything.

I'm happy for your mom, and may she continue in her good works, and that she is a calmer person

jayandbutton · 10-04-04, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven

You have told me what Christians believe is fact, what they need to do to be good Christians, and convince others to follow them. But what I want to know is what empirical evidence do they have for believing in their religion's validity?

Some Christians may have beliefs based on reason rather than faith, but their logic is based on false data. This logical fallacy is called a circular argument.

well, you might pass a freshman philosophy class with this steven but somehow you must refute the resurrection. no other man in history returned from the dead other than one. that's not "religion" that is fact. how people interpret things after that miracle is a side issue. the savior's words are well documented. choose to debate them as you wish but the wise man chooses to follow them!

Steven · 10-04-04, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayandbutton

well, you might pass a freshman philosophy class with this steven but somehow you must refute the resurrection. no other man in history returned from the dead other than one. that's not "religion" that is fact. how people interpret things after that miracle is a side issue. the savior's words are well documented. choose to debate them as you wish but the wise man chooses to follow them!

You are joking, right?

jayandbutton · 10-05-04, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven

You are joking, right?

sure, dude...and the 20 billion ppl who believe this and the hundreds who personally saw it all were high on drugs, too. and most of them are in a place where they are high all the time!

**zoedragon** · 10-05-04, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayandbutton

choose to debate them as you wish but the wise man chooses to follow them!

Spoken like a true follower. I think the wise man chooses to think for himself. Don't let others think for you or you'll be blindly following the guy who is interpreting the events for you, and who may be tainting the results with his own personal agenda. Interpret them for yourself.

jayandbutton · 10-05-04, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoedragon

Spoken like a true follower. I think the wise man chooses to think for himself. Don't let others think for you or you'll be blindly following the guy who is interpreting the events for you, and who may be tainting the results with his own personal agenda. Interpret them for yourself.

of course...we are allowed to choose our path at least in so called free societies. that's why one must take the evidence and draw one's own conclusions. just because one has not personally seen something does not mean it did not happen. and presume you know that so called true believers take many shapes and forms and predilections. there are far more enlightened followers than blind ones that i know.

Steven · 10-05-04, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayandbutton

sure, dude...and the 20 billion ppl who believe this and the hundreds who personally saw it all were high on drugs, too. and most of them are in a place where they are high all the time!

It is interesting that the number of people that you claim share your beliefs outnumbers the world's population.

At one time, the majority of people thought that the world was flat. The fact that their belief was in the majority had nothing to do with whether or not it was correct.

Mike · 10-05-04, 03:59 PM

I'm all for christianity. What religious group go out in the 3rd countries and donate their time, energy, and money to provide food and build shelters...while the U.S. government do jack? What religious group do great things for the community and local residence? What religious group gather canned foods and give out to the poor? What religious group spend Christmas, Thanksgiving and other holidays preparing foods for the hungry families? The list goes on.........

10-01-04, 02:38 PM	#63 (permalink)
PandaMoOo GCP.com Admin Joined: Aug 2004 Location: Mission Viejo, CA Posts: 401	Well said there Steven. Penn and Teller have an episode on people thinking the Bible is literary truth, which of course they debunk. For example, everyone remembers how Moses parted the "Red Sea" right? to help the escaping slaves be free? Well... in the area the only two possible bodies of water they could have crossed were the Red Sea, which is a 200 mile walk. Or the Reed River, which is a swamp- that sometimes when its dry and windy peels away and is about 2 miles long. Both cases are relatively a) not possible to walk. b) not a miracle. Most people I know who are very religious and reasonable people look at the Bible as a way to live your life metaphorically, not to be interrupted as fact. I am annoyed when people use the Bible and point to it as a work of Fact, when it was written by people. I mean... do a little research into the Bible and there's sometimes many different versions of the same story, how can they all versions be true? And why must christians insist on trying to get others to follow them? I feel silly answering a whole bunch of "why?" questions without asking a few of my own. The christian clubs/organizations/students on campus are always busy asking me religious questions when I walk around. One such conversation this week: Female: "Hello" Me: "Oh, hello?" Female: "Would you be interested in studying the bible on campus?" Me: "No thanks, I'm not religious." Female: "Why is that?" Me: "I don't find much reason or purpose to believing in something I can not test or see." Female: "Why?" Me: "Have a good day." Anyone else get one of those conversations? Or how about the "I am trying to doing a survey...." Perhaps I should have asked why her faith requires her to question me about my life; but I doubt her mind is open enough to give me a reasonable answer. __________________ -PandaMoOo- www.GradeCalPoly.com

10-03-04, 10:43 AM	#65 (permalink)
zoedragon Fire-breather Joined: Mar 2004 Location: Inglewood, CA Posts: 668	I find that your chances of getting caught by any one of these "surveyors" drops dramatically when you refuse to make eye contact. Just duck your head and walk very purposefully in a direction away from them. Only the most persistent will try to get your attention. I got caught by a LaRouche fanatic last year myself. They were unfortunately parked in front of the post office I had to get into, so walking purposefully in another direction would have taken me away from where I needed to go. Bastards.

10-04-04, 07:17 PM	#72 (permalink)
zoedragon Fire-breather Joined: Mar 2004 Location: Inglewood, CA Posts: 668	That you attempt to understand "the other side" is commendable. I just wish more people would do the same. Although I dislike what religion has done to a lot of people (made them intolerant), I can see the benefits of it also. It is a source of hope for those experiencing desperate times. It brings a sense of calm to others. My mom used to have a terrible temper. She'd get upset, throw things, yell and be generally scary. Then she got into Buddhism and became a much, much calmer person. She learned to accept things for what they were, finally recongizing that screaming about it wasn't going to fix anything. She has an inner peace about her now that I think is much better for her health. Anger never heals anything. I guess my point is that there isn't any one "correct" religion. If it helps you without oppressing others, then I'm all for it.

10-05-04, 03:59 PM	#80 (permalink)
Mike Enthusiast Joined: Jan 2004 Location: Fullerton Posts: 199	I'm all for christianity. What religious group go out in the 3rd countries and donate their time, energy, and money to provide food and build shelters...while the U.S. government do jack? What religious group do great things for the community and local residence? What religious group gather canned foods and give out to the poor? What religious group spend Christmas, Thanksgiving and other holidays preparing foods for the hungry families? The list goes on.........