The ACLU And the CROSS

[jamarquez]

Since steve read my publish artical the San Gabriel Valley Tribuine Newspaper(which you can buy on campus) printed out I thought I should make this new thread.


Steve,

Lets get one thing settled, I agree with a few issues brought up to the ACLU but this one about the seal of LA county should not be moving forward. By your last posts I have read you have questioned if there is a God and that we should have HARD evidence to show it. Well, I DONT. OUr founding Fathers came here so we can have a free religous socity and didn't mind the values of other religionists. The MAJORITY of AMericans are in some form of Christianity (90%) and while our Atheists in the US will be (1%)

No where in the UNITED STATES CONSITUTION does it say that we must OBAY ONE TRUE RELIGION and we are not by have a cross on the LA seal. That cross is there and is used in MANY (1,000's) of religions and the photo is of a mission who was a PART of UNITED STATES HISTORY.

Going back to my little sister like you say on the Q&A thread. Yeah my little sister is very special to me and i love to death, but when programs such as Blind date and Eilimidate come on AFTER SCHOOL like aound 3 -5 they are on they are STIFFING THAT DOWN MY SISTER MIND. and i don't want my 9 year old sister being exposed to that. I was changing the channle one time and we pasted one of the shows, and they were doing body shots and my sister asked me "What are they doing?"

(I did not check for Grammer, i have to go to my little sisters soccer game, im coaching)
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To check out my webpage and my article printed in the NEWSPAPER go to

http://www.jorge.goosemoose .com/catalog.html

[Steven]

Originally Posted by jamarquez

Since steve read my publish artical the San Gabriel Valley Tribuine Newspaper(which you can buy on campus) printed out I thought I should make this new thread.


Steve,

Lets get one thing settled, I agree with a few issues brought up to the ACLU but this one about the seal of LA county should not be moving forward. By your last posts I have read you have questioned if there is a God and that we should have HARD evidence to show it. Well, I DONT. OUr founding Fathers came here so we can have a free religous socity and didn't mind the values of other religionists. The MAJORITY of AMericans are in some form of Christianity (90%) and while our Atheists in the US will be (1%)

No where in the UNITED STATES CONSITUTION does it say that we must OBAY ONE TRUE RELIGION and we are not by have a cross on the LA seal. That cross is there and is used in MANY (1,000's) of religions and the photo is of a mission who was a PART of UNITED STATES HISTORY.

Going back to my little sister like you say on the Q&A thread. Yeah my little sister is very special to me and i love (the greatest gift ever) (the greatest gift ever) to death, but when programs such as Blind date and Eilimidate come on AFTER SCHOOL like aound 3 -5 they are on they are STIFFING THAT DOWN MY SISTER MIND. and i don't want my 9 year old sister being exposed to that. I was changing the channle one time and we pasted one of the shows, and they were doing body shots and my sister asked me "What are they doing?"

(I did not check for Grammer, i have to go to my little sisters soccer game, im coaching)
-------------
To check out my webpage and my article printed in the NEWSPAPER go to

http://www.jorge.goosemoose .com/catalog.html

Please correct the syntax of your post. I can't understand much of it. From what I can understand, you seem to assume I said certain things when the only thing I said was that the ACLU's purpose is to protect people's constitutional rights and not to protect your sister from watching Elimidate. I did not say that in the constitution it says "we must OBAY ONE TRUE RELIGION". I don't even know why you would think I said that.

[jamarquez]

Originally Posted by Steven

...... I did not say that in the constitution it says "we must OBAY ONE TRUE RELIGION". I don't even know why you would think I said that.

I didn't say you said that? I said that in the constitution we don't have to follow any certain TYPE of Religion. Read it right....I said..

Originally Posted by jamarquez

.No where in the UNITED STATES CONSITUTION does it say that we must OBAY ONE TRUE RELIGION and we are not by have a cross on the LA seal.

[Steven]

Originally Posted by jamarquez

I didn't say you said that? I said that in the constitution we don't have to follow any certain TYPE of Religion. Read it right....I said..

You seemed to be trying to contradict a statement. Most of your original post looks like a bunch of gibberish, hence the confusion.

[Steven]

Originally Posted by jamarquez

The MAJORITY of AMericans are in some form of Christianity (90%) and while our Atheists in the US will be (1%)

At one time the majority of Americans thought that slavery was a good thing. That did not make it right.

[jamarquez]

Originally Posted by Steven

At one time the majority of Americans thought that slavery was a good thing. That did not make it right.

What does somthing the is absolutly immoral like slavery have to do with people being part of some type of Christianity? There's a big diff from Christianity and slavery buddy.

I also think everything you say is a bunch of gibberish, but hey!, you believe what you want and i will do the same.


"Why do I feel like im talking to a wall?"

[zoedragon]

You feel like you are talking to a wall because, in a sense, you both are brick walls. Steve believes in logic and science, things you can prove can be believed. The whole basis of religion is having faith in something that, scientifically, cannot be proven. Therefore he refuses to believe in "religious truths". Jamarquez on the other hand has been raised with these religious thruths and has no reason to question them. What a person believes, is truth in his eyes. He therefore has no reason to doubt they are true. Neither side is will really listen to the other because they are just looking to "convert" the other side into their way of thinking.

Maybe a little bit of acknowledgement would go a long way in settling differences. You don't have to agree with the other person, but you could maybe try to understand what direction they are coming from.

I'm just playing peacemaker here. If you guys are enjoying your arguments then by all means continue.

[Steven]

Originally Posted by jamarquez

What does somthing the is absolutly immoral like slavery have to do with people being part of some type of Christianity? There's a big diff from Christianity and slavery buddy.

I also think everything you say is a bunch of gibberish, but hey!, you believe what you want and i will do the same.


"Why do I feel like im talking to a wall?"

I was pointing out that just because the majority of Americans believe something is right does not mean that it is right.

[Steven]

Originally Posted by zoedragon

The whole basis of religion is having faith in something that, scientifically, cannot be proven.

If one truly believes because of faith, then one is merely choosing beliefs randomly.

[Steven]

Originally Posted by jamarquez

I also think everything you say is a bunch of gibberish, but hey!, you believe what you want and i will do the same.

I refered to your post as gibberish because its syntax is unintelligible. I was not refering to the meaning of the post. If you need me to clarify my posts please do so.

[zoedragon]

Originally Posted by Steven

I was pointing out that just because the majority of Americans believe something is right does not mean that it is right.

I wholeheartedly agree with this point. The popular opinion of the masses, no matter how widespread, is still just an opinion.

[jamarquez]

Originally Posted by zoedragon

.....

Maybe a little bit of acknowledgement would go a long way in settling differences. You don't have to agree with the other person, but you could maybe try to understand what direction they are coming from.

I enjoy it, and I do "understand" where he is coming from.

So let me ask this one question which you must refer to my article.

If the cross offends people, then what about TV? So much sex and things that should not be seen is on. I am offended and so are alot more people.

ACLU wanted the Cross off, but what about the cow and the fish? Those too are used in other religions? Why don't they go for those as well? OR maybe when we are in gov't buildings they will NEVER use the letter "t" because that too looks like a cross...WOW, what a trip huh? [laughing]

Originally Posted by zoedragon

.....I'm just playing peacemaker here. If you guys are enjoying your arguments then by all means continue.

(Don't think im getting upset or mad?) you said your a peacemaker, and no help is needed (but thanks )i just like to hear where other people stand and I want them to know where I stand as well

[zoedragon]

Originally Posted by jamarquez

If the cross offends people, then what about TV? So much sex and things that should not be seen is on. I am offended and so are alot more people.

True there is a lot of sex and violence on TV, but that's because it sells. If you start censoring that more than it already is, the people who aren't offended will start to complain. You can't please everyone. So those who are offended by what's on TV should avoid the offensive programs and watch the shows that they do like. That's why all shows announce the rating before it starts ("This show is rated TV-MA.") It makes it easier to decide what shows to watch with your family and which will be more suitable for "mature audiences".

I admit I'm being lazy and still have not read this article that you speak of. I would imagine the issue with the seal and the cross is the separation of church and state, which was one of the founding principles of this country. No one cares if Blue Cross has a cross for their logo. They're a private corporation free to choose whatever logo they wish. LA County, however, is a governing body. Religious symbols therefore may not be appropriate.

I see your point when you ask, why attack the cross? What about the other possible religious symbols in the seal? Perhaps the answer lies in the original intent of the design. Much of the country's frontier lands were first settled by cattle ranchers. Perhaps that is why the cow is there. If the shape of the cross is unintentional and was originally thought of as a nifty design, then there really is no point to attack it. However if part of the significance of the design is to incorporate some religious history, then that is what they are protesting.

[Steven]

Originally Posted by zoedragon

I would imagine the issue with the seal and the cross is the separation of church and state, which was one of the founding principles of this country. No one cares if Blue Cross has a cross for their logo. They're a private corporation free to choose whatever logo they wish. LA County, however, is a governing body. Religious symbols therefore may not be appropriate.

I see your point when you ask, why attack the cross? What about the other possible religious symbols in the seal? Perhaps the answer lies in the original intent of the design. Much of the country's frontier lands were first settled by cattle ranchers. Perhaps that is why the cow is there. If the shape of the cross is unintentional and was originally thought of as a nifty design, then there really is no point to attack it. However if part of the significance of the design is to incorporate some religious history, then that is what they are protesting.

Exactly. The ACLU's positions on things is not determined by what offends people. It is determined by the Constitution. The seperation of church and state was put in place so that people would not blindly do whatever their religion commands. In terrorists nations, rational discussion is set aside and dogma is dominant.

[zoedragon]

Originally Posted by Steven

The seperation of church and state was put in place so that people would not blindly do whatever their religion commands. In terrorists nations, rational discussion is set aside and dogma is dominant.

This is true. In the more conservative parts of the Middle East women are second class citizens because their religious teachings tell them this. Or at least that's how the people in power interpreted it to mean. Well respected individuals can easily use religious interpretations to spread the doctrines they want across the masses. The founders of this country recognized this danger and that is why they so carefully outlined the separation of church and state. They never say you can only follow one religion, or you can't follow any religion. Religion, ideally, plays no factor in government. You're free to have any faith you'd like.

[PandaMoOo]

Originally Posted by zoedragon

Religion, ideally, plays no factor in government.

Well... for the most part. There's been some sad examples of religion screwing up good government. Go Zoe! I agree entirely with Zoe!

[jamarquez]

Originally Posted by Steven

Exactly. The ACLU's positions on things is not determined by what offends people. It is determined by the Constitution. The seperation of church and state was put in place so that people would not blindly do whatever their religion commands. In terrorists nations, rational discussion is set aside and dogma is dominant.

Yes, BUT no where in the Constitution does it say "seperation of church and state." I like how people bring this up, this so-called "seperation of church and state" came in a letter that was written by Tom. Jefferson to a group of Baptists who were scared that the Gov't was going to adopted a certain religion. This is where the term "seperation of church and state" comes into play, he wrote in a letter not in the Constitution or Declaration of Indep. In the 1st admen. it says that we have "Freedom of Religion" which we do and Majority of American like I pointed out are 90% some form Christan. Freedom of Religion is for YOU to choose a religion an practice it, and gov't is not Promoting ANY denomination when having the cross on the seal.

Originally Posted by PandaMoOo

Well... for the most part. There's been some sad examples of religion screwing up good government. Go Zoe! I agree entirely with Zoe!

Really?

Originally Posted by zoedragon

Religion, ideally, plays no factor in government.

TO: PandaMoOo,

What about Murder, Lying in a court room, stealing, and many others, these are all things told by OUR own religion(s) that we should not do and we have laws on them cause of it. Religion does play some kind of role in Gov't, it has to? Right?

[Steven]

Originally Posted by jamarquez

gov't is not Promoting ANY denomination when having the cross on the seal.

It is promoting Christianity. Even if the government were to promote all religions, it would still not be okay. As I have already pointed out, religion is not based on logic. Therefore, if a religion was to say that nonbelievers must be enslaved, then there could be no rational debate conducted to stop it.

[jamarquez]

Originally Posted by Steven

Therefore if a religion were to say that black people deserve to be slaves, then it there could be no rational debate conducted to stop it..

You are picking things out of the BLUE NOW...

Black people slaves? We are more aware of that, that is wrong

Originally Posted by Steven

As I have already pointed out, religion is not based on logic.

As a Catholic and many other religions who will agree we have Faith and We don't have hardcore proff that there is a God and people might want it, but you what, God whats it like what. How do we know that the sky is going to be blue 2maro or that you are going to be alive? I believe i was created or Human life was created by somthing MORE BIGGER then gases floating around and linking together over Millions of years.

[Steven]

Originally Posted by jamarquez

You are picking things out of the BLUE NOW...

Black people slaves? We are more aware of that, that is wrong

Who is "we"? I was not talking about your religion. I was refering to a hypothetical religion.

This is not out of the blue. We have been discussing this for the past few posts.